writing yaoi and hetero

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:03 am

Oh, man, I am SO going to chime in on this one....also the one you raised, Evalicious, about Ken and Joe's actual "leanings..."

Hope to have a little time tomorrow...argh.

Work is a four letter word... Confused

Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 352 Location: Enterprise D

rottridge wrote:

I was talking about Blade the fanfic as written by Lux. But the mention of the name does make me drool since it brings to mind Wesley Snipes.

Ah!! Eva!! Lux tapping fingers on the desk and rolling eyes Go to read it http://www.geocities.com/atlantislux/blade.html, since you like vempire stories you should like this Mr. Green

I chose the title rightly after Snipes's movies, that I think is finally presenting a radical change in the usual vampires stories.
The first idea I've idea was even too similar to the first Blade movie Rolling Eyes

Another inspiration came from "Highlander"... Ah... Lambert...

Quote:

I'm also wondering what kind of occurance could be visited on Jun to create a change. It would have to be drastic, some kind of very tough horror she goes through, maybe? Or am I just being evil? (You always hurt the ones you love).

And what about Jun turning into an evil swan? Or I'm just being... uh... Tengu? Wink

Lux

. Joined: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 892 Location: Snack J

Eva wrote:

But an interesting one -- not about whether canon Ken is gay, but why we choose to write him as gay vs. straight vs. something in between, and if Joe ever gets written gay/bi? Anybody want to go there in another thread? I'll play if we do.

ninja-sam wrote:

Oh, man, I am SO going to chime in on this one....also the one you raised, Evalicious, about Ken and Joe's actual "leanings..."

Hope to have a little time tomorrow...argh.

Work is a four letter word... Confused

I started a thread for this over in the Den, 'Which Way do they Go'.

And hey, Lyon drew my chibi avatar for me. Thank you Lyon! Very Happy

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:55 pm

I love the chibi! I've been admiring it all day!!!!

Too cool (though Sayuri's hot pic is so lovely we might all have to take turns using it just to keep it in the loop Wink

).

I am so sorry Lux Rolling Eyes

that I was thinking of the wrong thing with the story -- I had just been talking to a friend about getting together to watch Blade Trinity when it comes out just before I read that message, so I was thinking about that! Embarassed

I am reading the new thread you started Janet, thank you. I don't really have much to say yet, but you know I will! Very Happy

. Joined: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 892 Location: Snack J

I've been thinking about this. I haven't written a story from Jun's POV... although I earnestly wanted to be Princess when I was a kid, it's hard not to feel a little embarrassed by Jun as an adult -- mildly by original Jun, and violently by Jigglin' Jell-O Jun of the OAVs Rolling Eyes

(which do not have the excuse of having been made in the 70s).

But I would like to write a story about her sometime. And when I do, I will be thinking about what Late and everyone are saying here. I want to try to find a Jun in my head (if you know what I mean) that feels like the canon Jun, but is a strong, satisfying character.

Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 1194 Location: Crab Nebula

I think you misunderstand Jun.

Jun is not an `elite soldier` in the conventional sense, she is in a career that is very Japanese, very traditional, and more than that, was always regarded as very suitable for a woman...she is a `ninja`.

She is as a rule a strong individual, though I think lacking in confidence, (though she can take command if need be.) all the women in the Gatch cycle are as a rule very strong.

You brought up the subject of Eowyn, and being defeminised (is there such a word?) I would disagree.

Eowyn is commanded to stay at home and protect it. In itself no great shame, but she has got `the devil of making something of herself` (a very tengu phrase) and wants to do `songworthy` deeds. (the key word is songworthy, she is feminine in that she wants to be noticed) She is also very interested in going and seeing what Aragorn is doing (another feminine thing) So she disguises herself (a neccesity even if male, its not her sex shes covering up. Notice too how the other riders are well aware of her; the only ones to be fooled are Theoden who is too busy and Merry whos mind is on other things.) and goes off in search of derring do and romance.

Tolkien certainly had issues with women, but his female characters are all strong.

A favorite Cartoon of mine is `Mulan` but as usual Disney garble the message badly. As several Chinese commentators said, Mulan did `not`, culturally `could not` sneak off without her parents consent, its a story of a martial arts trainee tacticaly taking the place of her aged father. The message is `you may one day have to do this for a male relative, and if hes the General, an awful lot of men and women will be depending upon you.` Many Chinese and Japanese women learnt tactics and martial arts for this very reason.

(it was also possible in various Islamic societies; thus when we hear that Mumatz Mahal invented attar of roses and killed four tigers with five bullets, we are not suprised.)

Joined: 15 Mar 2005 Posts: 66 Location: NSW, Australia

Quote:

I think there's a gender double-standard here, btw. It's socially acceptable for guys to get turned on by girl-on-girl action, but mention you're into guy-on-guy action as a female and I'd be willing to bet a beer or three you'll get the fisheye more often than not.

Now thats something i can relate to,
as a straight female i sometimes struggle to understand why male on male appeals so much to me but i can't stand to think about reading/watching female on female.Not that i have watched a lot of either but the amount of fanfics i have read including male on male, yowwwww!!!!!!!

My introduction to this style of fic was fanfic based on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Originally i started by wanting to read Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike but the stuff that got me really hot was the Angel/Spike stuff, nothing was too shocking when it came to those to.lol.

Same as Tim Curry dressed in fishnets for Rocky Horror, i can't explain it, only know that i'm not alone in the way it makes me feel.

Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 54 Location: Here, there...

Sorry to resurrect such an old post, but I think that something must be done to renew people's activity! We've got to get things going again. ;)

I don't think that in my case it's really an issue of strong or weak characters, because I just find it more enjoyable to write romance between men that, like most romance written about and drawn, doesn't really tend to happen that way outside of stories. It's an enjoyable fantasy though, which is why I tend to like it so much; Joe and Ken are attractive characters, so of course it's appealing to have them do the naughty. To boot, there's also the often-cited reasoning, and justifiably so, that they would go well together because, unlike the other people who usually get involved in their lives, they are trained to be able to handle their lives.

As for Jun, she was the product of the 70s and, although she does have certain moments of strength in the series, she fits (or perhaps more rightly, defines) one of the crucial archetypes for a five-person hero team, and that is The Girl. There's The Good Boy, The Bad Boy, The Girl, The Kid, and The Big Guy; these are more or less universal mechanics applied to five-member teams, and although there are often subtle deviations from them, they usually tend to adhere to the same basic mechanic; even another female on the team replacing The Kid, for example, will be less of The Girl because there already is one, and more of The Kid because that's who she is. It's not so much restricted to gender, either; even with all-male teams there's got to be a more classically feminine one who fulfills the role of The Girl. And female characters can be The Good Boy, The Bad Boy, etc.

But I digress. In any case, Gatchaman being what it is, which is largely an archetype-setting series for many that followed, Jun was often stereotypical in her actions and motivations. Although there were moments of her being strong, the show was directed at young boys and she was relegated to being an older sister or occasionally maternal sort of character (although in II she was firmly situated as older sister thanks to the presence of an older female character outside the group), and so she had to fill that role. Although women in Japan, by that time, were socially stronger than they had been in the recent past, even leading to greater independence and creative direction in the tumultuous 80s, there was still a vast amount of influence in terms of tradition. There were things that women simply did not do, and as the sole representative of the female gender on Gatchaman, in terms of the main characters, Jun was supposed to uphold that.

Many Tatsunoko heroines were strong characters, but they were also typically very frail when compared to their male cohorts. It's a complex character model, and it makes Jun a very deep character. To sufficiently examine her, we must also look towards some of the most influential works of the time. Nagai Gou, well-known author of controversial works such as Devilman and Harenchi Gakuen, always tended to include strong heroines who were appealing because they also typified feminine virtues even whilst undertaking traditionally masculine roles such as the defender, the monster-slayer, and so forth. Perhaps best represented in his timeless heroine Cutey Honey, Nagai sensei managed to appeal not only to his youthful male readership but also to many female readers of the time, due to his ability to make characters like Honey realistic and compelling.

Certainly Nagai sensei's comics are filled with nudity and, at times, even sexual materials, but especially at the time, that was what the audience wanted. To boot, his heroines are almost never ones to indulge in such activities (and never in the younger-oriented titles) and so preserve a sort of virginal innocence. In one interview, I believe he spoke at length about it; the heroines were always very strong, but they had real and sometimes amusing weaknesses, just like any other person. Kekkou Kamen, the outrageous parody of superhero Gekkou Kamen, ran around in nothing but a mask, gloves, a scarf, and boots. Occasionally she would express embarrassment, otherwise presenting a stony and heroic demeanour. Similarly Jubei, female ninja star of Harenchi Gakuen, could battle to the death in a swordfight with monstrous foes but become flustered with embarrassment if a boy flipped up her skirt and showed the world her panties.

Part of this, I believe, has to do with familiarity to the readership or viewers. To give these qualities to the characters makes them think 'I know someone like that' or 'that's just like my sister/mom/aunt!' Because of that, the characters become more real to them. So Jun had to be made believable and typical for her time, which rendered her archetypal in her own way, yet at the same time somewhat typical as well. Additionally there was the task of making Jun appeal to whatever female viewing demographic would exist; sometimes mothers would watch with their children, and of course they would want to see a beautiful female character with strength, her own source of tribulations (perhaps ones even a bit reflective of a generation older than that depicted, as is seen a few times on the series), and traditional weaknesses, as well as a traditional mindset. They would want to see some identifiable element of themselves in her, in order to be able to see themselves in the story and to sympathise with it. It has been said that even today, no matter how progressive the Japanese woman, she will still tend to smile close-mouthed, cover her mouth when laughing, and comport herself with dignity when in polite company. Certainly in the 70s this was still a very important factor too.

A fundamental sexual dynamic is necessary for this, as is so poignantly analysed in the hilarious and irreverent Even a Monkey Can Draw Manga: to attempt to sum it up, in most manga aimed at young boys, an overtly homosexual dynamic exists between the hero (the Good Boy, in my archetype label) and the rival (The Bad Boy), with a latent homosexual one existing between the sidekick (or The Kid) and the hero. The viewer wants to be, or to be one with, the hero, but the sidekick is actually the one who represents the viewer. Through the sidekick is the only way the viewer can be one with him. At this stage, most will not find any interest in females even if they are heterosexual, but social pressures always seem to encourage this interest, so the female character is there to provide not only a familiar female presence (hence the familiarity that must be present), but also a mild sexual outlet, typically a completely innocent and platonic one that provides only comical nudity, panty-flashing, or totally innocent kisses or flirting which, ultimately, leads nowhere.

Another aspect of the familiar role fulfilled also dictates her effectiveness in battle; Jun rarely is allowed to resolve a situation on her own or even to give the finishing blow. Why? Because you wouldn't want your mother or sister to do that, and certainly not your girlfriend! The rival/Bad Boy is allowed from time to time because he's supposed to be cool and the viewer finds him attractive, representative of urges that are typically suppressed by social conditioning. Joe is appealing because of his independence and irreverence, and it makes him dangerous, whereas Ken, though somewhat comparatively boring for some time through the series, is who the viewer knows he is 'supposed' to idolise and aspire to be.

The ideal of the 'Yamato Nadeshiko' is reflected in most heroines in some way. Even if they may seem outrageous, brash and brazen, or outright rude, there is almost invariably at least one scene, episode, or piece of art depicting them as traditionally beautiful Japanese women. She may hold the torch for one or more of the leads, but she never aggressively pursues them. She may suffer and is beautiful in her suffering. She rarely challenges male authority, especially the hero, except in very specific circumstances. Often her only statement of protest will be a silent look, or quietly saying a person's name, as if to herself. She is usually shown mercy or underestimated because she is a woman. She is inscrutable and incomprehensible to the men who are around her. They can only dismiss her because they can't hope to understand her. But they understand that even if she may not hit as hard as they do, her words hurt much more, and her tears -- especially if coaxed forth because of something they did to her -- are more painful than any physical impact.

In many ways Jun incorporates this archetype and more; although the women of her time of origin were certainly not all Yamato Nadeshiko types, that remains a formidable ideal of the culture. Because of this she had to represent part of that. Because of this, she was not an aggressive pursuer; that was left to male characters.

Now, in Western society of course, this is somewhat different. It's represented occasionally by odd choices in dubbing, such as happened in Goshogun (dubbed as 'Macron 1' in edited format), wherein Remy overtly flirted with the male leads, although this was not in the original. In Western media it is almost obligatory for the female lead to have some token interest in the male lead, and usually she aggressively pursues him, demonstrating (to the young male viewer) parallels of the likewise similar insistence of his female peers on 'mushy stuff' like kissing, romance, and the like, which his peers probably don't understand either and are only fixated upon them because of aforementioned social pressures. Regardless of this, however, I think that the need for familiarity for identification and thereby sympathy, as well as the fundamental sexual dynamic, make Jun a character who tends to be seen as less aggressive romantically and sexually, and thus less viable as an aggressive lead in stories. Even in the Time Bokan OVA, wherein Jun has grown (after presumably quite some years) more obvious with her interest -- which is played off purely for laughs -- she never becomes aggressive in the way that a male character like Joe might; Ken remains blithely ignorant of her advances.

Even in the Gatchaman OVA, Jun was sexier in actions and behaviour, aware of her sexuality and appeal, but not really more aggressive. It would simply be inconsistent with her character and identity. That isn't who she is.

However, it's very easy to imagine Joe being even a little predatory in his pursuit. If he were interested in Ken, the notion might strike him one day just to take him. Who would stop him? It's a dynamic full of energy, one that's almost electric.

The other characters simply don't have it; there is the homoerotic tension between Joe and Ken that isn't there between Joe and anyone else, or Ken and anyone else. Even what sexual tension might be perceived between Jun and Ken tends to be much milder and more easily dismissed. But it brings to mind, when one looks at Joe and Ken, the often-stated observation that aggression tends to be an outlet for desire. If they didn't have physical violence to express their energies, they would probably be screwing each other's brains out. Which is what invariably happens in many of these stories, simply because they only take the strong undercurrent and bring it to the surface. The tension expressed through violence and physical activity is then, in those stories, returned to its origins and the alternative outlets are not enough; they must have each other, and it is simply that and nothing more.

It is interesting to imagine other pairings, such as an older Jinpei and Ken or Joe, or Ryuu and Ken, but there is simply not the same tension extant. Ryuu seems an eternal outsider in many ways, not sharing the orphanhood of the others on the team and seeming never to approach things in the same ways as the others. Ryuu in many ways fulfills a necessary role of a responsible older male relative or friend, one that can be relied on for protection or knowledge, but one who is less interesting because he is less dangerous or less hot-blooded, less likely to solve things with a well-positioned right hook straight off, although he does know how to handle himself. He must always be slightly removed, because he invariably ends up the mediator between feuding parties in many cases; that objectivity is only preserved through separation, however slight, from those involved.

As for Jun, she is The Girl. She is strong, but she rarely will resolve a situation on her own. There are others who need to have that, and she doesn't mind letting them because it isn't that important to her as long as the goal is attained. She is more mature because of this, although there are plenty of moments where she likewise shows deep immaturity, capriciousness, and selfishness. She also tends not to be aggressive in her protest, disagreement, doubt, or romantic interests. This can lead to her accepting abuse at times in the first Gatchaman series that she wouldn't, later on, and would be inconceivable in the OVA.

Even through her development into a much stronger character by the end of Gatchaman F, she would remain a woman who really did represent The Girl: strong, able, capable and sensitive, romantic, and not really aggressive. With marked weaknesses common to many of her kind, but with strengths as well, she had become a stronger person and a more reliable one. But she still was, and would always be, The Girl.

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:51 am

I decided to read some of thread out of curiosity mainly. (I have this thing about wanting to understand people more... its a life time journey.) After reading the first post I needed some headache tablets because of the information overload and a coffee.

After Eva's post a bottle of red wine did the trick to help me sort through the theories and Psychology.... Well done!

I'm not into yaoi I must admit, but now I understand more why some of you are...